Providing proof that this happened should be incredibly simple, straight-forward and second nature to all Jehovah's Witness.
Why am I still waiting for one shred, then?(JW apologist in question as removed their attempt to broach this subject)
* Jehovah's Witnesses start with the presupposition that Christ returned, invisibly, in 1914. From this presupposition comes the belief that Malachi 3:1 was fulfilled in 1918 when Christ returned to "his temple" and undertook an inspection of all Christians on earth at the time. His satisfaction with the Bible Students, a sect of the Adventists, led by C.T. Russell, himself a failed haberdasher, was such that he selected them to be God's only channel of communication on earth, the "faithful and discreet slave" "class".
This presupposition assumes the following unique teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses to be true;
- Christ returned in 1914
- based on that date, Christ inspected all of Christianity in 1918
- Matthew 24:45-47 applies to a "class" of Christians
- that "class" of Christians was found only within the membership of the Bible Student sect
Obviously, only Jehovah's Witnesses believe these things. They do so because they are taught them by the Governing Body, which itself claims to be the 'voice piece' of the above mentioned "faithful and discreet slave" "class". The reason Jehovah's Witnesses believe what the Governing Body teaches them (the afore mentioned unique beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses) is because they believe in the above 1919 selection of the Bible Students. And the reason they believe in the 1919 selection of the Bible Students is because of their unique beliefs, including Christ's return in 1914 and his subsequent inspection of Christianity in 1918. And the reason they believe that....
By now you can hopefully see the circular logic that keeps faithful Jehovah's Witnesses blind to the truth: there is no proof for any of this (JW apologist in question as removed their attempt to broach this subject).
I think we should create a clock that counts the days passing from when StandFirm made that post. My suspicion is that he will never get there, though i'd actually be very interested in what he says. If I were convinced that Jesus Christ Himself came down, chose my church alone as God's mouthpiece in a particular year, and rendered all others as false, then i'd be proclaiming this grand truth from the mountaintops. Very strange you hear the WT using this date often, but the WT apologists not touching it with a 10 foot pole.
ReplyDeleteA very in-depth article takes much time for me to write, time that I don't necessarily have immediately. Since you are an ex-Witness I don't think any amount of proof would convince you. Some in the 1st century would not be convinced either. But since you were a Witness, use the last Watchtower Library CD they gave you and refute what you find there. That should tide you over in the meantime.
ReplyDeleteIt needn't be a "very in-depth article". I don't think anyone is looking for that.
ReplyDeleteFor example, for me to prove that Christianity is true, I just do the following;
- Jesus Christ existed
- Jesus claimed to be the Son of God
- Jesus was crucified
- Jesus was raised on the 3rd day
- the tomb was empty
- this truth transformed the world
It was this evidence that did convince hundreds of thousands in the 1st Century. Also, notice how easy to understand the evidence is. There are no dodgy presuppositions such as 607.....
The claim you make about your religious order is fairly grand; Jesus returned in 1914 (only the Bible Students knew this and recognised it), the bowls of anger/trumpet blasts describe in Revelation where fulfilled via magazine articles/tract campaigns/conventions published/organised by your religious order. Again, matters and events of universal importance, stuff that affects every, single man, woman and child that have ever lived, have all taken place through and in your religious movement.
Pretty amazing stuff.
Obviously to make those claims, the Governing Body, surely, has provided you - as a loyal defender of their teachings - with ample, easy to process and disseminate evidence.
Surely there's a 5 or 6 point evidence chain that proves to the world that Jehovah's Witnesses are the truth.
Alternatively, if there is no evidence, it's ok to admit it.
Standfirm, keep in mind that i'm not an ex-JW and i'm completely open to accepting the evidence if it has a solid line of defense. For example, the claim should be just as easy to back up as Christ's death, burial, and resurrection if it is true.
ReplyDeleteIf someone asked me to establish my claim with solid evidence, I could easily do so with about an hour to research and type up my entry. If I could not, i'd very seriously question whether the evidence for my claim is really that solid.
As a Christian I've taken the time to make sure there is evidence to support my belief, trust and faith in Jesus as the Christ, the risen Saviour.
ReplyDeleteIf I'd discovered, scratching under the surface of my beliefs, that, actually, there is no evidence that Christ existed when we believe he did, or that the disciples had stolen his body, for example, then I'd find it very hard to remain a Christian.
When I investigated the claims of the Watch Tower Society (Christ's 1914 return, 1919 selection of Bible Students etc), my world collapsed when I realised there's no evidence to back up their unique beliefs and in fact these beliefs had shifted, changed, been written or abandoned again and again. It then came down to me being completely honest with myself, my wife, my family and my friends. This wasn't easy to do. It cost me a great deal.
However, at the same time I was learning that Jesus is the truth and that knowledge, bit by bit, set me free. That knowledge, and freedom, were worth the cost. And there's evidence to back it up!
The post is finished.
ReplyDeleteNow, you will notice the post does not mention 1919 or any of the other issues in the post I deleted on the 20th. The reason is because you stated that "It needn't be a "very in-depth article". I don't think anyone is looking for that....Surely there's a 5 or 6 point evidence chain that proves to the world that Jehovah's Witnesses are the truth." 1919 is too detailed to discuss in such a post. It is, in my opinion, sort of like demanding of Christianity, not the proof you mentioned, but that "God truly chose your Apostle Paul", or something similar.
But the whole point of the demand for proof is the 1919 part. All religions claim to be true. The Christadelphians believe they alone are the true Christianity. However, they don't attach a date to that. Jehovah's Witnesses do.
ReplyDeleteI would have thought proving the 1919 selection by Jesus, upon which the entire authority structure, and concept of, a "faithful and discreet slave" "class" stands or falls - along with the over-arching dominance of the Governing Body - would be easy to prove and establish beyond doubt. Why would it need to be lengthy?
For example;
- Jesus clearly returned in 1914 as borne out by the following Biblical and extra-Biblical evidence;
- [insert evidence from and outwith the Bible]
- Jesus examined all religions claiming to represent him in 1918 as borne out by this evidence;
- [insert evidence, remembering that this was an event of unavoidable universal importance and significance]
- Jesus found that the Bible Students alone were providing spiritual food at the proper time;
- [insert examples of the fine spiritual food on offer by CT Russell (who was, you have to remember, thought to be the "faithful and a wise servant" himself)]
- therefore Jehovah's Witnesses are the true Christian religion
"It is, in my opinion, sort of like demanding of Christianity, not the proof you mentioned, but that "God truly chose your Apostle Paul", or something similar."
Providing proof that God truly chose Paul is easy; it's in the Bible and the historical record of the growth and expansion of followers and believers in Jesus Christ testifies to this; what's your point?
I have to add that I'll be responding, in full, to your attempt to prove that Jehovah's Witnesses are "the truth". In the meantime, thanks for giving it a shot.
ReplyDelete